Sgt. Paolo Magliocco is a sergeant with the Lethbridge Police Service. Over his 14–15-year policing career, he has worked in financial crime, major crimes, violent crime, and frontline patrol. In addition to his operational role, he is trained in the Edmonton Police Service’s Reintegration Program, a peer-supported wellness initiative designed to help first responders process traumatic incidents and remain healthy throughout their careers.
In this episode we talk about:
- How policing has undergone a significant cultural shift from expecting officers to simply “be resilient” and suppress trauma.
- His training in and use of the Reintegration Program.
- How trauma is often stored in the body rather than the conscious mind.
- Why the first few years of a policing career are often the most psychologically vulnerable.
- The importance of maintaining support systems both inside and outside policing, including peer support, family, and friends, to provide perspective and help prevent officers from becoming isolated within police culture.
- The challenges police services face in recruiting and retaining officers, and how changing public expectations, increased scrutiny, and evolving societal attitudes have made policing a more difficult profession to enter.
- How modern policing increasingly benefits from partnerships with civilian experts and why solving complex investigations often requires acknowledging the limits of police expertise and embracing scientific collaboration.
- His advice to new police officers.
Notes from the start:
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Transcript
Yvonne: I’m going to get you to introduce yourself and say where you are and what you do.
Paolo: Perfect. So I’m Sergeant Paolo Magliocco. I’m with the Lethbridge Police Service.
I’m currently assigned to our patrol division. We call it the field operations division, but nobody knows what that means. It is patrol operations, so frontline emergency response.
Yvonne: Emergency response. Oh, so you probably see some really good stuff.
Paolo: Yeah, absolutely. It’s a busy, action-packed world for sure, but it’s also not. Like we deal with a lot of general calls for service as well.
Just assisting the public wherever we can, depending on the issues that they’re having or that they’re facing. We also do general investigation work. So anything that’s not necessarily classified as major, let’s say, something that’s perhaps more simplistic, patrol operations will deal with those investigations as well.
Yvonne: All right. And so this was quite a change from your previous role when we met.
Paolo: Yes, exactly. I come from the major crime world. I’ve worked in a couple different areas, but I used to work in financial crime.
I did that for about five years. I really enjoyed that type of work as well. And then I shifted into violent crime.
So it was quite a change. But yeah, certainly my last role with the police service was investigating major, complex or sensitive type major crime. And that’s everything from homicides to major sexual assaults, robberies, major assaults, stabbings, those types of things, or anything really that’s complex or sensitive for the police service.
And that could be things that involves, for example, some type of political influence or something that might otherwise be challenging for a frontline police officer to deal with.
Yvonne: And so how did you… Did you always want to be a police officer?
Paolo: Yeah, actually, I did. It was easy for me, I think. To join the police service. It was just something that I always wanted to do. It was my only… That was my only sort of career path and career choice in life. And I was lucky because my family and my parents were always so very supportive of that. And everything I did was to gear myself up for a role in a life in police work. Went to school for it.
You know, everything I did, sort of decisions that I made as a young person was always geared towards ultimately becoming a police officer and working in that role. And once I became a police officer, I wanted to work in investigations. That was sort of the first thing that interests me.
And that was where I wanted to go with my career. So very fortunate. You know, I’ve been very fortunate to sort of get into that. And move into that relatively quickly in my career as well.
Yvonne: So what is it about investigations that appealed to you? Is it the mystery? Is it the puzzle? Is it working with people?
Paolo: Yeah, I think ultimately, I would say it’d be the challenge of that work. Because it’s so… It’s sort of all-encompassing and it’s very…
And there’s some significant depth to it. I just felt like, you know, you can really truly impact the community when you’re investigating these types of major occurrences. Because there’s big community concern around these sort of major events, right?
That happen and that garner a lot of, let’s say, news media or attention through media. But yeah, it’s just an area that I’ve just valued and appreciated a lot. And found that that’s sort of my niche.
And I think a lot of police officers, ultimately, they try to find an area that they’re good at, you know? And that speaks to them. And a lot of police officers, I think, pick that early on in their careers.
You know, they see that there’s so many different areas that you can go into. And that you can specialize in. But for me, it was investigations, for sure.
Yvonne: And it was quite a leap, I imagine, from financial investigations to death investigations.
Paolo: Yes.
Yvonne: I don’t know if it’s the same jump that you’re feeling now, from death investigations to frontline. But it sounds like you’ve had a few massive jumps in the past few years.
Paolo: Yeah, absolutely. It’s all very different, right? And these are, of course, all areas that I’ve enjoyed.
I’ve enjoyed tremendously. Yeah, financial crime, for sure, it’s just a different beast, right? And thankfully, you’re not dealing with a dead person or some type of trauma-related event.
But serious nonetheless, right? And people that suffer major loss, you know, financially, of course, is very impactful. And so it’s nice to contribute in that world as well.
Yeah.
Yvonne: And so let’s talk about the stuff you did with death investigations. Because that’s where you and I met. And a colleague of mine and I were talking recently about post-traumatic stress.
And in law enforcement, it’s gone through a bit of an evolution where it was not talked about. And kind of everybody has it, just shuffling under the carpet. And it’s, from what I understand, kind of sort of not really acknowledged.
But, you know, it is what it is. To now where it’s part of the practice, part of a daily practice. But it’s not that way with people that work with you, like me and Pam, part of the forensic consulting portfolio that you all reach out to. It’s not part of our bailiwick yet. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that.
And how, maybe what you’ve experienced with death investigations. Because that’s not easy. I think it takes a certain type of person.
It’s not just skill set. I think it’s a personality, temperament thing, as well as the supports.
Paolo: Yeah, exactly. It is quite interesting. So in the, I would say in the short time I’ve been in policing, which is like 14-ish years, 15 years, something like that, it has taken some pretty significant shifts in terms of wellness. And when I first started, which isn’t that long ago, realistically, I don’t think we had very good wellness programming or resourcing in place.
And that is true for the entire country. I would say for all police agencies in the country at that time.
The expectation was, you come in as a resilient person. You’re picked, through a very robust and competitive process, to become a police officer in the first place. And I think that that was kind of the reliance at the time. You’re resilient, you’re strong, you’re mentally well, you’re physically well. And now here’s a difficult job for you to do. And the expectation is that you will deal with trauma and you’re going to deal with death investigations. And you’re going to deal with sort of destruction in the community and a lot of negativity. And you’re just going to do it. And you’re going to be quiet about it, so to speak. If there are inherent issues, well, that’s something for you to deal with in retirement. It’s not something that you bring to light while you’re working. Which of course, that in itself goes very much against human nature and behavior.
Because, as we all know, police officers are just people. And we’re all susceptible to the same issues and the same effects as any other person. But there we are with that old debate.
You know, police officers are expected to be perfect. And we’re expected to do a perfect job. However, we are just imperfect people.
And so what I value so much, certainly about Lethbridge Police Service, but about policing now in general, is that it’s shifted. And we have a new approach to this because there is so much history where police officers have become unwell because of the job. Police officers, you know, ultimately you can become sick if you’re not careful.
And so that sort of manifests in many different ways. Mentally unwell, we can develop mental illnesses and we can develop what’s known as PTSD. And we’re actually more susceptible to those mental illnesses than the general population.
And so the shift has been: how do we tackle that? Right. And how can we keep police officers at work longer and keep them at work safer and more well?
And so this shift has been, we have to create some wellness programming and we have to create avenues to make sure that we’re safe at work, safe from mental illness. Right.
And so we have psychologists now that we work with and we’re able to access care and we’re able to access counselling that seemingly with no stigma associated to it, which is actually fantastic.
Yvonne: So is it talked about much more? I’ve got this vision where, 20 years ago, you go out with a beer with your colleagues and you’re talking about your day and everybody talks about the file or the case, but nobody talks about how they feel about the case.
Paolo: Yeah. And I think that that happens still.
Yvonne: Okay.
Paolo: But now it’s just more talked about from a wellness perspective. Like, today police officers will openly discuss seeing a psychologist and openly discuss the challenges that they’re facing or how a particular, you know, certainly a particular death has impacted their mental wellbeing. Right. Which is really cool. I really appreciate that with my colleagues as well, having those sort of tough conversations. But whereas you’re, I think you’re correct.
Before we’d have some drinks or we would connect as a group after shift or after work and just talk about how, “well, that was really terrible.” “That was a really bad call for service,”
or “that was a really bad investigation.” And then we would leave it at that and then sort of move on to the next thing.
I think there’s some benefit in that, right? Because connecting with our peers is really important for police officers. And police work is so unique, right? And only police officers kind of understand other police officers, I would say. And so that peer connection is really cool.
It does help and it kind of drives you through some of those difficult times. We’ve kind of globbed onto that idea as well. And we’ve created like a peer support network as well.
So, peer support is now an actual program. It’s actually something more official where particularly trained police officers can actually connect with you, if you’ve dealt with something challenging, and just provide that outlet for you where it doesn’t have to be like an unofficial conversation in a bar over a beer, right?
It can be something more robust now, which is also really cool.
Yvonne: I kind of got this vision in my head of maybe more of a formal debrief. Yeah. Like talking about, let’s say, I don’t know, a domestic violence call.
You go out and, there’s a body on scene. It’s not pretty. There’s a lot of blood. There’s been a lot of violence. And the perpetrator is still on scene. And they’re still very much in the moment, very emotional. And now you are stepping into this highly charged environment.
Paolo: Yes.
Yvonne: That’s insane to walk into. Just for a normal person, to walk into a situation like that and then to try to resolve what you can or make some sense of order out of it. And then you go home to a normal life.
Paolo: Right.
Yvonne: Since you need a transition period in there, some sort of debrief. And that now with the psychologists, or even the peer group, there may be more of that.
Paolo: Yes, exactly. And I think you sort of, you hit the nail on the head beautifully there. Most people, if you think of it, that’s not normal. And that’s not something that the human brain can realistically just sort of deal with on its own. And so creating peer support and creating these outlets through a robust counseling program.
We’ve also developed something that’s really interesting for police, it’s reintegration. And this is a program actually developed by the Edmonton Police Service. They’re sort of the gold standard program across the country that a lot of different police agencies, as well as, fire and ambulance services, paramedic services have also implemented.
But it’s about how do we deal with the trauma from one particular call, let’s say, or one particular situation. And it’s all about exposure therapy and sort of the ideas behind exposure therapy and how that might help us help us process something that’s occurred. And so now we can sort of recreate the incident or… let’s say the death or something like that. And basically, you get to walk back through it and you expose yourself to it again in a safe environment with peers and with psychologists. The design is to help you process what’s occurred in a safe environment. And so we can recreate those situations now and you just kind of go through it kind of piecemeal, piece after piece. And, you sort of get to sit in the feelings that you have and you get to sit in sort of the reaction that your body might have to those certain things or triggers, for example, and then get to a place where you’re comfortable again.
You know, it’s interesting, but, for example, if you deal with something traumatic. Let’s say there’s a fatality collision that police officers deal with and involves a particular type of vehicle. And from that point on, you might see that particular type of vehicle throughout the city or the community that you live, and it causes an effect on you. It creates a stress or it creates some kind of response. So now we can say, OK, that’s that appears to be a problem. So let’s work on that now. And so you can get exposed, for example, to that type of vehicle over and over and over again in a safe place, in a safe environment to the point where it no longer affects you anymore. And then you can sort of move forward with that. Right.
So it’s pretty cool. It’s a pretty cool program. We’ve had tremendous success with this program. It’s in the infancy as well. It’s pretty new. It’s only the last few years within our service. Edmonton Police has been doing it for many, many years now, but the success is huge. And it’s about resolving the trauma for the police officer, keeping the police officer at work, keeping them healthy, happy at work, and then preventing the bigger issue of police officers on sick leave. Right.
Which impacts all of us. That impacts the organization, that impacts the community, you know, creates those vacancies that we don’t want, that nobody wants.
And so it’s seemingly a really good answer to that.
Yvonne: So what about the expectations? Because the support seemed to have changed so that… I guess what I’m getting at when you mentioned being in this exposure type therapy environment for the reintegration and whether it’s you’re allowing whatever you’re feeling to come up and to kind of process that. Oftentimes–and I know this from personal experience–that it isn’t just about what you’re thinking.You can have a visceral reaction and it doesn’t have to be about anything that you’re thinking. You think that you’re fine, but your body is doing this weird shit.
Paolo: Yes.
Yvonne: And you’re like, what the hell is going on? Why is my eye twitching all of a sudden? And it won’t stop. Why are my shoulders up around my ears and I can’t get them to relax? And it all started after this one incident. And so I was just wondering about how the expectation for individuals–individual police officers–to recognize these changes and to see that “I’m not expecting myself to be perfect.” “I’m not expecting myself to resolve this within the next day”, that “I’m OK for me to be affected.” And to do something about it.
Paolo: Yeah, absolutely. There is certainly some onus placed on the individual police officer to kind of say, hey, this is affecting me. Hey, this is bothering me as well as on police leadership. Certainly to also recognize if there’s somebody in their charge that might be experiencing some things or maybe they’ve got a reaction to something serious that’s happening around them. But it’s funny because I think sometimes we also don’t know or don’t recognize yet that there’s a problem.
Yvonne: Yeah.
Paolo: And I’ll give you an interesting example. So when I when I became trained in reintegration, it was myself and two other colleagues within the police service that went to the Edmonton Police Service to get this reintegration training so that we could sort of implement it at the police service. And when I went to this training, so they asked me, did I have an example of a time when something happened to me that I could [share] they could attempt reintegration with me on. And so I thought, yeah, you know what? Here’s an interesting case that happened to me.
A colleague in mind–this is when I was in in patrols. I want to say it might have been the first time I was in patrols or the second time I was in patrols–but I went to a call. It was actually a traffic complaint in a quiet residential neighborhood, and there was a report of a vehicle that was kind of driving around the neighborhood and wasn’t driving appropriately. And so myself and a colleague went down there and through our investigation, we actually determined that it was related to a domestic violence incident that happened at a house in this neighborhood.
And so we located the victim and she told us she was a victim of domestic violence and it was her husband at the time. And he was acting irrationally since that time and was driving around the neighborhood and he was having some problems. So we ended up locating him at his house and he needed to be arrested.
So we went up to the door and tried to speak with him. He barricaded himself in the house and he wouldn’t come outside. And a short while later, he actually started cooking off fireworks at us. And if you know fireworks, they sound an awful lot like gunshots. Right. And so we were unsure what was happening. Were we being shot at or what was going on? And so these little firework rounds were kind of whizzing by our heads. And so we had to kind of duck and dive and get some more help down there to help us through the situation.
We ended up resolving it after kind of a brief standoff. But I didn’t quite realize that was actually pretty impactful on me. And so I went through this reintegration with the Edmonton Police Service and we went down to their shooting range and they recreated that for me.
And they were able to shoot off something that resembled fireworks. It was kind of like a less lethal round that they could use that sort of sounded a lot like a firework. And the reintegration officer that I was working with noticed right away when that was happening, he noticed the things that you mentioned, like, kind of the hair on my neck started to stand up. And I was getting goosebumps and I would stiffen and it was having an obvious impact and effect on me. And I thought that was really interesting because I didn’t know at the time that it was actually kind of impactful and that my body was having a response to that noise. And it was bringing me right back to that moment where I thought, oh, I’m in trouble. I’m getting shot at. Thankfully, it was just fireworks. But again, it was very eye opening.
And so I would think other police officers probably would be in the same boat where they may not know until they’re faced with something similar again, right?
Yvonne: I’m just going to throw this out there, but I’m guessing that you probably brought that example up because somewhere in your body or your mind, you knew that it was still niggeling at you.
Paolo: Yeah, exactly. And, I’m fortunate that I haven’t actually been shot at yet as a police officer. But I know that there are police officers in Canada where this is a reality for them.
But yeah, it was at the time one of the more significant incidents for me in terms of my own personal safety and kind of the feeling of my own safety in jeopardy. Right. And so, yeah, very interesting, though. Very interesting.
Yvonne: Holy crap. I can only imagine. I mean, we’re still stampede is just about to finish. So I’ve got to put up with fireworks every night at 11.
Paolo: Yeah, right.
Yvonne: I’ve got a cat. And so at 11 o’clock every night, I’m sitting straight up in bed. My cat’s going, what the hell is going on? Every year.
Paolo: Yeah, same thing, right? Same thing. And there you go. And there’s people affected by that, Yvonne.
Yvonne: I know. But you’re right. They sound a lot like gunshots because I’ve heard both. And I’m like, I can’t tell the difference.
Paolo: Yeah, exactly. Especially close up. You don’t know exactly what you got going on.
Yvonne: So well, especially when you’re walking into that situation where you’ve just talked to the woman and she says she’s the victim of domestic violence and the husband who’s obviously driving off his rage, and you’re walking into a potentially highly-charged situation. Yeah, he could have had a gun. So you’re expecting this.
Paolo: Yes, absolutely. And we know, unfortunately, domestic violence, there’s a huge risk for injury and death involved, right? Because of the emotional components to that. And that’s a reality in this country. Unfortunately, domestic violence, it affects everybody, right? It affects all kinds of families. It doesn’t matter where they come from. They’re all sort of equally affected by it. And so we know this in advance, right? So as soon as it’s domestic violence related, we think, OK, there’s a big, big, big risk here. And so you never know what how people are going to act or what’s going to happen, right? So, yeah, it can be quite impactful and challenging for police, for sure.
Yvonne: So since you got trained in this integration model, you’ve seen the effect that it’s had in your own life. So I’m guessing you’ve probably also seen the effect it’s had in your colleagues’ lives.
Paolo: Yes, absolutely, and I’m so thankful that I’ve seen tremendous success with colleagues that have gone through this program and how it can be very, very life changing for them, for the positive, right? Because before, they would just be required to sit in it and deal with it themselves, whereas now we actually have this step-by-step process that we can use to help reduce the impact that it’s having on them.
And, you know, Lethbridge is not alone in this, but we do have police officers that have gone through reintegration and they are still at work. They’re okay, they’re able to function and do the job, despite major trauma that’s occurred, and so it’s really neat. And oftentimes, police officers that are successful in the program become sort of a cheerleader for the program, and they encourage other police officers that are maybe more hesitant to use it to kind of step up and say, you should try it, it will work, it’s good, it’s good stuff.
Yvonne: So, what have you learned about coping with your own stuff? I guess, either from working through your own stuff in the reintegration program, but also seeing others go through it. What are some of the lessons that you’re taking and applying on yourself?
Paolo: I think the biggest lesson is just realizing that you the things that we do are not normal. And that if you want to have a healthy career, and stay in police work, and do the job you love, that you’re going to have to seek help when it’s right. And you’re going to have to kind of do the things that you that you need to do to stay healthy.
Interestingly enough, this idea of mental illness and resiliency and officer wellness, you’re at the greatest risk within the first few years of your career. That’s the greatest risk for you. Because your mind is so flexible, and it’s easily susceptible, I think, to damage from trauma and death and destruction. You need to build resiliency, and you need to build appropriate outlets to kind of survive, right.
And, that would be something that I would tell new police officers or sort of relate this to new police officers within our service that you have to be most cautious in the early stages of your career. The older police officers that we always accuse of being a little bit crusty, or rough around the edges, those are the ones that are probably more resilient, because they’ve got a lot of lessons. And they’ve got time in that they’ve learned some things.
And so I think the big, the big life lesson is just do it early. Start early, you know, just recognize that it’s okay. And this is what we need to do right from the get go. And then, as years go by, and you may access these programs less, because you may feel or find that you’re, you’re better equipped to deal with it.
Yvonne: Or maybe you found other ways.
Paolo: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like family supports and friend supports. That’s really important too, right. And it doesn’t have to always be related to work related programming. I find that I rely on friends and family, more often as well.
It’s nice having outside outsiders, so to speak, that you can kind of discuss things with and, and they can give you good perspectives, right? Because police officers are so unique, and we’re very different, we’re a different breed of people. And so sometimes you can get lost in cultural things within policing.
So it’s nice to have a robust network outside of policing, to stay in contact with so that you don’t lose focus too much. And, and you can lean in to support from friends and family, for sure.
Yvonne: Do you notice a difference in the type of recruit that are coming in now, versus when you started? I guess, kind of related to that too, is if your graduating class, or the people that you started with, are they still around? How were they different than the recruits that are being hired now?
Paolo: Great question, actually. I’ve thought of this a lot recently, because things have changed a lot with how we sort of recruit and retain people. So I would say yes, the vast majority of people that I started with, they are still police officers today, which is really great.
I think the recruiting process typically is that you become a police officer, because you are answering a calling in life, versus just being hired for a job. Policing is not just a job, it’s definitely a way of life. And I think our recruiting efforts have always been, let’s pick people that are answering a calling in life that are committed to this work.
And oftentimes, those are the people that stay for an entire career, but we’ve seen some things change and some things shift in society, we’ve gone through some pretty big things as a society, like the COVID pandemic, as an example. We’ve seen big displays of, or big debates surrounding things like the killing of George Floyd in the United States, sort of a movement of anti militarization of police, for example.
We’ve seen things like, not to get too much in the weeds, but, sometimes the media isn’t always the best reviewer of police.
Yvonne: Really, I would not have figured that.
Paolo: We’ve kind of run into a place where not everybody wants to be a police officer anymore. And our recruiting pool is actually really small now. And this is this is true right across our country.
Every police agency in the country, I think has had similar challenges in recruiting. And so, we’re hoping that there will be a shift again, where everyday people will want to become police officers, despite the inherent challenges, despite the realness of the job. And how it’s so challenging, because police officers have to deal with things that are just negative, and people are at their worst. And, we have to come in and kind of make some sense of that, and try to make it safe and good for everyone. But sometimes it’s a lose-lose, no matter what. So I think police leadership has done well in the last five years to try to build back a little bit from some of these big key challenges that agencies have faced, and trying to really keep people at work.
Let’s keep senior police officers at work. And let’s try to recruit some new people that really want to do this job.
Yvonne: But I’m guessing there is an additional advantage to keeping you all around as well. I mean, it’s not just it’s not just that it’s cheaper, because it’s expensive to hire new people and to train them.
Paolo: Yeah, right.
Yvonne: But you’re, I mean, the longer you stay in any job or career, the more knowledge you gain about that. And I’m guessing that in law enforcement, it’s especially important, because it’s not just knowledge of the law or whatever, but it’s also people knowledge. And that can be just about infinite, like every everybody’s a case study, everybody’s an individual.
And the more knowledge you can gain about that, the better you’d be able to respond to a situation.
Paolo: Yeah, of course. I think, it’s funny, policing is well known to be like a slow reacting force as society changes around us and community expectation changes around us. Sometimes the police aren’t always as quick to change.
But I think we’re getting a little bit better at that. And I think community expectations change so frequent when it comes to policing, we just need to be better at being more adaptable. And I think if we come into some kind of groove, where communities shift, society expectations shift, and we kind of shift with it, it kind of tends to result in more happiness all around happier police officers, happier community members, they’re more satisfied, they’re feeling more trust with police as well, which is a big issue.
But that comes down to our training. And in that Canadian police officers are so unique in the world because our training is second to none, truly. And when you when you put a Canadian police officer up against, for example, an American police officer, which tends to be the best example, we can always say our hiring recruiting standards are far more robust.
Our training standards are far more robust. We have much stricter transparency rules and, oversight and accountability on Canadian police officers. And this is what makes Canadian police unique.
And this is what makes us better, comparatively to others around the world. And I think it also allows us to be more flexible when we need to be. But yes, it does fall on our training standards. Absolutely.
Yvonne: So I’m going to completely shift directions, because I want to work with you again. So I want to know when you’re going to be back doing death investigations.
Paolo: Well, maybe if I’m lucky, I don’t have to do another death investigation again.
Yvonne: Oh, man. So what other things that maybe we haven’t touched on that you want to talk about? Something that we missed?
Paolo: We should mention a little bit about kind of our own relationship and how that might work. Because I feel like it’s a little bit unique. Like I mentioned, police are just inherently difficult to kind of adapt and be flexible sometimes, when it especially when comes to our investigations.
But recently, I would say that we have really started to lean in more on experts and civilian experts. And that’s been, I believe it’s been very transformative for us. And so when we rely on archaeologists, anthropologists, for example, to sort of assist us, I think it’s been game changing.
Because there are just things that we just don’t know. And so I think relying on academic knowledge has been very helpful. There’s countless examples, I think that, over the years where we’ve had to really rely on academics like yourself, Yvonne, to sort of help us navigate sort of these very challenging death investigations, where we may not know how to proceed, or we may not know what else we can do, sort of from our typical investigative work, what are some things that we can do differently. And I think we’ve been able to learn some lessons over the years. And I think, relying on expertise in which we do locally with the University of Alberta, and of course, yourself, Yvonne, to kind of help us with, with those types of investigations.
And, we’ve always been good at relying on, we have analysts, for example, civilian analysts that we work with. And these people are just second to none. They’re well trained, they’re well educated, they can help police investigators make linkages and which can ultimately help us solve crime.
But we’ve never been good at sort of reaching outside the organization and say, we might need an anthropologist to help us. We might need an archaeologist to help us with a more challenging case.
Yvonne: What was, why? Sorry to interrupt, but why? Because that’s a big shift.
That’s a big change in approach. I mean, there’s a lot of ego. And there’s also, I’m guessing, probably confidentiality and privacy concerns involved as well.
So that’s a big jump to make.
Paolo: It is a big jump. I think you said it right when you said sometimes ego gets in the way. You know, police investigators like to, I think they like to say that they know, and they’ll figure it out. And we’ve got all the help we need internally with police officers only to help. But we know that’s really not the case anymore. Some of the best investigations are often solved using science.
And we know this because of DNA evidence, for example. The new thing, DNA. It hasn’t been, it’s not that new, but it’s like 30 years, 30 plus years old now.
Yvonne: It’s pretty new.
Paolo: Exactly. And so that was game changing for us. You know, we’re really relying on DNA and how that can help us.
And I think it’s the same. And now that I’ve specifically worked with you, as an anthropologist, it’s like really interesting that we can say, oh, wow, like there are things that we just don’t know. And we don’t understand.
And we might need help in that area. And so to kind of lean into that is, I think, pretty huge, right? There’s some, of course, there’s challenges, right?
And there’s always cost challenges, for example, perhaps the government doesn’t want to spend the money on it. You know, where we must be fiscal hawks. But the other side of it is, we also need to solve crimes.
So, relying on the experts that we’re aware of, I think is really valuable.
Yvonne: Yeah, I think that was part of the argument with the Manitoba landfill case. You know, the public and the families had this big outcry, they wanted to investigate the landfill, but then the government was very concerned about the financial output.
Paolo: Yes.
Yvonne: And how much it would cost. And, then there were other concerns too, that, those of us who’ve worked in those types of situations, well, what about health and safety, the actual workers, and not just the health and safety, but the wellness, because you know what, 25 years after working on the Pickton investigation, I’m still feeling stuff. Yeah.
So, you know, there’s just a lot going on, I think. It’s not just the financial stuff.
Paolo: Yeah, absolutely. And financial things will always be a factor, especially, as it comes to government work and police, as you know, we’re just arms of the government. And, it’s the people’s money that we are spending to investigate crime.
But again, we want to set ourselves up for success. And so, that case out of Manitoba is a really great example of that. You know, I think ultimately, would there be success if it was just police alone doing that type of work? Or would it actually be successful if we are leaning in on our scientific partners and experts to help navigate that? And I think that is just the way it is, right? And you bring up the point too, with the Pickton case as well, heavily relied on science for that as well, right?
And like yourself working in the field there, the success, I think, comes from that true partnership, right? It’s police and science together that I think can make that successful.
Yvonne: Yeah, yeah. I think you’ve got to know your limits. But you’re right, there’s a lot of ego involved.
Paolo: Yeah, exactly. And that, absolutely. And that’s the thing with police, our subculture, right?
And, we inherently don’t trust. And that’s some of the challenges that we have as police officers. But again, when we partner with people that have shown us their value and their worth, it just makes sense.
And you do have to pick, I think, with that, you do have to pick the right people, the right scientists, for example, the right civilian expert. Otherwise, it doesn’t work. If they don’t understand sort of police culture or police investigations, or if they don’t understand sort of legal limitations, either.
That’s a big one as well. But if there is that understanding, and that relationship exists, then we need to use it.
Yvonne: I don’t know, I think, because law enforcement sees, I guess, all the negativity, the underbelly of humanity, and everything wrong with humanity. It’s easy to develop a healthy distrust of people. I think it’s only natural.
Paolo: Yeah, that’s right. Would you believe people lie to us, Yvonne? No, no.
Really makes us jaded.
Yvonne: So yeah, I can see where there’s a bit of distrust in working outside law enforcement.
Paolo: Exactly, right?
Yvonne: It’s a tough situation to be in, broadening that circle to move forward the greater good. But you’re steeped in this, I don’t know, you’re in an abusive relationship, and yet you’re trying to broaden out your friendship circle. Who do you trust?
I don’t know. I don’t even know how to trust.
Paolo: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, big issue.
Yvonne: So yeah, as you can see, we solve all of life’s issues on this podcast.
Paolo: Yes, we do.
Yvonne: Yes.
Paolo: I love it.
Yvonne: Welcome to the fold.
Paolo: That’s right, yeah. It’s such an honor to be part of it.
Yvonne: Okay, is there anything else that you want to bring up? Where are you going to be, I don’t know, in 10 years? Where do you see yourself?
Are you going to be retired on some Italian beach somewhere?
Paolo: Yeah. Perfect world. Yeah.
Retirement on a beach somewhere would be really nice. Yeah. We’ll see.
We’ll see what the next decade brings. Certainly, I have more time to spend in policing, and so we’ll see where that goes and what the adventures will be. I’m not sure, but I’m definitely happy for now in the role that I’m in and thankful that I’m in it.
And despite some of the challenges, I think that I enjoy the work, and it’s meaningful and impactful, and I see the value in it in those little moments that we have with community members that aren’t… it’s not always the high-profile stuff that you see on the news, right? I think that’s the stuff that police officers are doing every day behind the scenes that nobody knows about. I feel the best in those situations because that’s what really helps people, I believe.
So it’s good. It’s fun, and I do like that. But yes, 10 years, from now, retirement would be really nice. Whether I love the job or not, I still want to retire.
Yvonne: Are you going to continue with the Peer Support Reintegration group? Yes. Yeah?
Paolo: Yeah, absolutely. It’s good. I find that that’s one of the best ways to give back to my colleagues as well, and kind of be there if they need that help or want it, right?
But it is great, and I also value officially being a leader in the organization, and I can have a lot of impact in that role as well. And it’s something that I really, really pay close attention to, because some leaders are bad, and I don’t want to be a bad one. So I want to make sure that my impact is, the colleagues that I have around me, is always positive, and want to be that good coach or mentor for them, and hope that they’re being developed the right way, and looked after as well.
That’s all very important to me. So I think that’s also been very nice to have that opportunity.
Yvonne: So since you’ve had all this mentorship experience, and this reintegration experience, if you could go back to Paolo as a recruit, what would you tell him?
Paolo: Well, that’s a loaded question, Yvonne.
Yvonne: Well, welcome to the podcast.
Paolo: Yeah. You know what I would say is, as hard as it is in police organizations, just always, just always do what’s right in the moment. Don’t worry about what people think of you. Don’t worry about whether it’s kosher or not. Do what’s right. Do what’s good for you. Look after your health. Look after your mental health, especially. Because 25 years is a long time to spend as a police officer. So if you can do what’s right early on, I think it just sets you up for success long term. Nice.
Yvonne: Yeah, I like it. That’s some serious advice.
Paolo: Right. Now, if anybody takes it or listens to it, that’ll be another thing.
Yvonne: Yeah. And if you would have taken it 15 years ago, who knows?
Paolo: Yeah, exactly.
Yvonne: Probably just would have given you the hand and walked off.
Paolo: Yeah, right. Exactly.
Yvonne: Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. I am so glad I got you on the podcast, Paolo.
Paolo: I’m so thankful that you invited me. It’s been great connecting with you again and chatting with you. I really appreciate that.
Yvonne Kjorlien 